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WarTalk: Ancient Greece edition

Modern security discourse is drowning in a shallow appropriation of antiquity, where complex historical realities are flattened into convenient slogans for contemporary geopolitics. Jordan Schneider, hosting a deep dive on ChinaTalk with Oxford historian Roel Konijnendijk, exposes how the "Thucydides Trap" and the pop-culture myth of Sparta are not just historically inaccurate, but potentially dangerous when they shape the ideology of the world's most powerful military. This conversation is essential for anyone trying to cut through the noise of current strategic debates, as it reveals that the narratives driving policy are often built on a recursive loop of modern military fantasies projected onto the past.

The Illusion of the Trap

Schneider and Konijnendijk dismantle the popular theory that a rising power inevitably clashes with an established one, a concept frequently invoked by global leaders to frame the current US-China dynamic. Konijnendijk points out that the theory, popularized by political scientist Graham Allison, is a modern invention that barely engages with the actual text of Thucydides. "He talks about Thucydides, but he doesn't have any examples from ancient history except for the Athens and Sparta thing," Konijnendijk notes, highlighting that Allison essentially mines the past for a slogan rather than studying the history itself.

WarTalk: Ancient Greece edition

The argument here is that the "trap" is a convenient label that obscures the messy, specific causes of the Peloponnesian War. Konijnendijk explains that the conflict wasn't driven by a simple fear of rising power, but by a host of specific grievances, such as Corinth being offended by Athenian naval encroachment. "If you were to read this a little bit more closely, you might decide that what you call the Thucydides Trap should be called something else," he argues. This is a crucial distinction for policymakers; relying on a simplified model ignores the unique diplomatic and local factors that actually trigger wars.

Critics might argue that even a simplified model serves a useful heuristic function for strategists, but the conversation suggests that these shortcuts lead to strategic blindness. Schneider and Konijnendijk push back against the idea that history repeats itself, emphasizing that "every single historical situation is different." To apply a fifth-century BC dynamic to the twenty-first century is to ignore the radical differences in the environment, the nature of the states, and the global order.

History never repeats itself. Every single historical situation is different.

The "High-T" Military and the Spartan Fantasy

The discussion takes a sharp turn toward the cultural influence of pop culture on the modern Department of Defense, specifically focusing on the administration's recent interest in testosterone levels and the "high-T military." Schneider connects this to the enduring influence of the film 300 and the novel Gates of Fire, which have created a distorted view of ancient Sparta that now permeates military culture. Konijnendijk offers a scathing critique of this phenomenon, describing the movie not as history, but as "a study of masculinity" where the goal is not peace, but a perpetual state of dying.

The core of the argument is that this cultural feedback loop is dangerous. The modern military projects its own values onto the ancient Spartans, and then adopts those projected values as historical truth. "It's the USMC in fancy dress," Konijnendijk states, noting that the version of Sparta seen in 300 is a "recursive" product of modern American military training applied to the ancient world. This is not just an academic error; it shapes the ethos of soldiers who are told that their purpose is to embrace a "death cult" rather than to achieve strategic objectives and survive.

The implications of this are profound. If the military leadership, influenced by these narratives, believes that the pinnacle of achievement is to "live to die," it fundamentally alters the calculus of conflict. Konijnendijk warns that "you don't want soldiers thinking in these terms," as it glorifies a mindset where peace is a failure and endless conflict is the goal. This framing is particularly concerning when applied to real-world operations where the human cost of such a philosophy is borne by soldiers and civilians alike.

What the Sources Actually Say

To correct this narrative, the conversation turns to the actual ancient sources, which offer a far more pragmatic and less mythologized view of the Spartan way of life. Konijnendijk suggests looking at Xenophon's Constitution of the Spartans, a text that focuses on social organization and birth rates rather than the hyper-masculine warrior ethos of modern fiction. The reality was less about raw manliness and more about a society trying to manage its values and maintain a population in a hostile environment.

The contrast between the myth and the reality is stark. While the modern imagination sees a society of invincible warriors, the historical record shows a complex, often fragile social structure. "It's about a modern military, its ethos, its training methods, its attitudes, the whole vocabulary," Konijnendijk explains, noting that the ancient version is just "a little sauce over the top" to make it feel authentic. This realization forces a re-evaluation of how historical analogies are used in defense planning. If the foundational myths are flawed, the strategies built upon them are equally suspect.

Bottom Line

Schneider and Konijnendijk provide a necessary corrective to the lazy historicism that plagues modern strategic thought, demonstrating that the "Thucydides Trap" is a political slogan rather than a historical law and that the Spartan ideal is a modern fabrication that risks distorting military ethics. The strongest part of their argument is the exposure of the recursive nature of these myths, where the military creates a fantasy of the past and then tries to live up to it. The biggest vulnerability remains the political appeal of these simple narratives; as long as leaders prefer a clean story over a complex reality, the danger of policy driven by pop culture will persist. Readers should watch for how these cultural influences continue to shape defense spending and operational doctrine in the coming years.

Sources

WarTalk: Ancient Greece edition

by Jordan Schneider · ChinaTalk · Read full article

From Xi Jinping invoking the Thucydides Trap to Hegseth’s “high-T military” and love affair with 300, the modern security world keeps reaching back to classical Greece to explain itself. Usually badly.

Our guest is Roel Konijnendijk, ancient history lecturer at the University of Oxford and author of Classical Greek Tactics: A Cultural History, joining Jordan, Justin, and Tony.

We discuss…

Why most scholars of Thucydides think there’s not much left of the “Thucydides Trap” once you take his name off it

300 and Gates of Fire as studies of masculinity: “It’s about the USMC in fancy dress”

The counterintuitive reason Greek citizen-soldiers thought training for war was ridiculous

Homeric gore, the slaughter of the suitors, and whether the Odyssey wants you to approve

Achilles on immortality versus glory, and why this poem still keeps us arguing 2,700 years later

Listen now on your favorite podcast app.

Jordan Schneider: WarTalk, Ancient Greek edition. We have with us the delightful Roel Konijnendijk, professor at the University of Oxford. We talk about, my goodness, Graham Allison and the Thucydides Trap, 300 and how it pollutes teenage boys and defense secretaries’ minds, Homer really liking blood, guts, and gore, and military ethics. This is a really good show. You guys are going to have a lot of fun. All right, let’s roll the tape.

The Thucydides Trap Is Fake.

Jordan Schneider: So how do ancient Greek historians today feel about Xi Jinping talking about this Thucydides Trap?

Roel Konijnendijk: So the Thucydides Trap is an idea that was invented in 2017, I think, by Graham Allison. He’s not an ancient historian. So it’s one of those moments where on the one hand, okay, it’s great, everybody’s talking about Thucydides, surely that’s good. But on the other hand, it is in an extremely shallow way. I read Graham Allison’s book on this, and I noticed that within a few pages he never talks about Thucydides again. He talks about Thucydides, but he doesn’t have any examples from ancient history except for the Athens and Sparta thing. He just talks about modern strategic situations. He’s not interested in ancient history as such. He’s mining it to get a nice little slogan for a phenomenon that he’s observed in the modern world. That’s absolutely legitimate. But it means that for us, that engagement with antiquity is very shallow.

And I think most scholars of Thucydides now would ...