← Back to Library

My desperate debate with top haredi rabbis

Dan Perry delivers a rare, unvarnished look inside the ideological fortress of Israel's Haredi community, moving beyond the usual political soundbites to expose a fundamental incompatibility with modern statehood. While most coverage fixates on the immediate friction over military conscription, Perry argues that the true existential threat lies in a deliberate educational apartheid that is rapidly expanding. This is not a story about stubbornness; it is a story about a demographic explosion that the secular majority cannot absorb without collapsing the economy or the social contract.

The Economics of Separatism

Perry frames the conflict not as a simple policy dispute but as a clash of civilizations within a single border. He notes that while the Haredi population is currently about one-sixth of Israel's ten million citizens, their family sizes approach seven children on average, creating a demographic trajectory that Perry calls "almost certainly a record for any sizeable community in the developed world." The author's central thesis is that the state's reliance on this minority for political coalitions has allowed a system to fester where men are funneled into religious study while the rest of the nation bears the economic and military burden.

My desperate debate with top haredi rabbis

The article's most chilling insight comes from Perry's observation that the Haredi leadership views secular education not as a necessity, but as a threat. When Perry pressed Rabbi Moshe Meiselman, a PhD holder from MIT and a towering figure in the community, on the lack of math and science instruction, Meiselman dismissed these subjects as an "intellectual game" that is "vastly inferior to the Torah." Perry captures the starkness of this worldview when he writes, "In your view it's self-harm," he shot back. "In your view it's self-harm," Meiselman replied, revealing a complete disconnect between the community's survival strategy and the reality of a modern economy.

This refusal to integrate is not merely cultural; it is economic suicide for the state. Perry points out that with very low male participation in the workforce, the community pays little in taxes while relying on a "huge web of ever-expanding welfare." The author argues that even if the government were to force military service, it would not solve the deeper issue: "The ultra-Orthodox minority mostly refuses to teach high school boys math, science, English, and other non-religious topics." This creates a future where a growing majority of the population is economically unviable.

The wars that began on Oct. 7 have exposed the moral rot inherent in this large minority evading military service, and the opposition promises to enlist them should it win this fall's election. But even that — heavy lift though it may be — wouldn't come close to fixing the actual problem.

Critics might argue that Perry underestimates the resilience of the Haredi community, noting that many Haredi women are entering the workforce and that the community has historically adapted to changing circumstances. However, Perry's data on the lack of secular skills among men suggests that such adaptation is happening too slowly to prevent a structural collapse. The demographic math is unforgiving, and the political will to change it is currently absent.

The Theology of Exemption

The debate over military service is often framed as a matter of fairness, but Perry reveals it is actually a matter of theological identity. For the Haredi leadership, the army is not just a place of service; it is a place of spiritual contamination. Perry recounts a conversation with Rabbi Chaim Yitzhak Kaplan, who bluntly stated, "There's no way that a young man… is going to go in for two, three years in the army and come out the same Haredi." This is not a fear of danger, but a fear of assimilation. The army is seen as a machine that grinds down religious identity, and the leadership is willing to risk the state's security to preserve their own.

Perry highlights the absurdity of this position when he contrasts the Haredi view with the reality of the ongoing war. With over 1,000 soldiers killed in Gaza and Lebanon, the disparity in sacrifice is glaring. Yet, the administration's dependence on Haredi parties has led to attempts to codify these exemptions into law. Perry writes, "The specific and delicate ages in question — late teens and early twenties — are precisely when he needs youth to be studying, lest they go astray." This prioritization of study over survival is a profound rejection of the Zionist premise that the state is the primary guarantor of Jewish safety.

The theological rigidity extends to the very concept of justice. When Perry asked Rabbi Shlomo Spitzer about the halakhic prescriptions of capital punishment for Sabbath violations, Spitzer replied, "I don't want to, I have to." This admission underscores the author's point that for these leaders, the law is absolute, regardless of its practical or moral consequences in the modern world. Perry notes, "It's a little (though not exactly) like someone telling you they cannot serve in a country where everyone else does — because they absolutely must become a pilot, plumber, poet or mathematician."

The most disturbing moment in the piece comes when Perry asks Rabbi Meiselman if the Holocaust occurred because Jews were insufficiently religious. Meiselman's answer was, "Exactly." Perry describes this as "the language of kulturkampf," a term that captures the cultural war being waged between the Haredi elite and the secular majority. This response is not just a theological quirk; it is a rejection of the historical lessons that shaped the modern state of Israel.

"Our nation is about learning," Kaplan said, describing Torah study the defining activity of Jewish existence. Once that premise is accepted, everything shifts.

A counterargument worth considering is that Perry's secular perspective may blind him to the genuine spiritual value the Haredi community derives from their isolation. The author admits to being impressed by the "cerebral atmosphere of learning" in the yeshivas, noting that the Mea Shearim neighborhood is a testament to a culture of deep study. However, he ultimately concludes that this cultural richness cannot justify the social and economic costs of their separation. The question remains: can a society function when a significant portion of its population is opt-out of its core civic duties?

The Demographic Tipping Point

Perry's most urgent warning concerns the demographics. He notes that the Haredi community is "winning" in terms of population growth, a fact that Heshy Grossman, his host, brags about with "eyes twinkling." But Perry sees this as catastrophic. "This would be quite charming, were it not also catastrophic," he writes. The implication is clear: if the current trends continue, the Haredi population will soon become the majority, and the state will either have to transform into a religious theocracy or face a civil war.

The author argues that the conflict is not just about policy but about the very definition of Israel. "The main issue – for the non-Haredi Jews who are still a majority in the land – is the Haredim," Perry states. This shift in focus from the Palestinian conflict or authoritarian reforms to the internal demographic crisis is a bold move. It suggests that the greatest threat to Israel's future may not come from outside, but from within.

Perry's conclusion is bleak. He suggests that the only way to manage the conflict is if the Haredi community stays stable in size, but he admits this is "awkward and delicate business." The reality is that the community has no intention of stopping its growth. As Rabbi Zupnick put it, "Why don't you go fight with all the people in Tel Aviv that they should get rid of their dogs and they should have five children?" This rhetorical question highlights the futility of trying to impose demographic limits on a community that views large families as a religious imperative.

Bottom Line

Dan Perry's piece is a masterclass in identifying the root cause of a political crisis, moving past the surface-level arguments to reveal a deep, structural incompatibility between a religious minority and a modern state. His strongest argument is the economic and demographic inevitability of the crisis, supported by direct quotes that expose the unyielding nature of the Haredi leadership. However, the piece's biggest vulnerability is its lack of a viable solution; Perry identifies the problem with surgical precision but offers no clear path forward other than a warning of impending collapse. Readers should watch for how the Israeli administration navigates the upcoming election, as the decision to force conscription could trigger the very civil unrest Perry fears.

Deep Dives

Explore these related deep dives:

  • Night Amazon · Better World Books by Elie Wiesel

  • Moshe Meiselman

    The article cites this specific rabbi as a central figure in the author's failed attempt to bridge the ideological gap between secular and Haredi Jews.

  • Gabbai

    This concept of the 'parnass' (community leader) who prioritizes Torah study over secular employment explains the theological justification for the Haredi men's refusal to enter the workforce that the author critiques.

  • Haredi Judaism

    This topic details the specific legal exemptions and curriculum gaps in Haredi schools that prevent boys from learning math and science, directly illuminating the author's argument about the impending economic collapse.

Sources

My desperate debate with top haredi rabbis

by Dan Perry · Dan Perry · Read full article

My friend Rabbi Heshy Grossman recently invited me to Jerusalem to meet top Haredi (meaning ultra-Orthodox) rabbis. Unhappy with my critical writings about the Haredim, this well-meaning true believer hoped to jump-start fruitful dialogue. I took the train to Jerusalem and spent a fascinating day with pleasant and welcoming scholars who left me in even greater despair.

The background is that angst is now dominating the discourse in Israel, amid a strong feeling that the country is running out of time to save itself. This may seem surprising, for the country looks hugely successful. And even once you look closely, usually the assumption is that it relates to the Palestinian conflict, or to the dispute over authoritarian reforms. But at the end of the day, as is those problems were not enough, the main issue – for the non-Haredi Jews who are still a majority in the land – is the Haredim.

Consider an upgrade to a Paid Subscription. You’ll be enabling independent reportage and commentary, joining a growing community, and unlocking access to all content.

The concerns used to be about the Haredim – who have always held sway over right-wing government coalitions – trying to impose religion, like banning commerce and public transport on the Sabbath, which they have done with varying degrees of success. But the clash has gone far beyond such matters. The wars that began on Oct. 7 have exposed the moral rot inherent in this large minority evading military service, and the opposition promises to enlist them should it win this fall’s election. But even that – heavy lift though it may be – wouldn’t come close to fixing the actual problem.

The ultra-Orthodox minority mostly refuses to teach high school boys math, science, English, and other non-religious topics – and routes as many men as possible to religious study at yeshiva seminaries well into adulthood, where they expect to receive state stipends rather than pay tuition. With very low male participation in the economy, they pay little taxes and depend on a huge web of ever-expanding welfare. Increasingly Haredi women do work, but rarely in high-end jobs, and almost always to enable the men to immerse themselves in Torah. The community is currently about a sixth of the population of 10 million-plus, but exploding because of family sizes approaching seven children on average – almost certainly a record for any sizeable community in ...